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Jeremy Runnells' Disciplinary Council Transcription

LEAKED:

Jeremy Runnells LDS Church Court

Transcription

Jeremy Runnells’ disciplinary court was on 17 April

2016.

On 19 April 2016, footage of his disciplinary court was

leaked to the public.

This is that transcript.

Here is a TL;DR version of the leak, but I recommend watching and reading all of it.

Transcriber’s note:

This is as close to the actual script as I could coherently make it. I removed some filler words

like “um, uh, ah, so” and duplicate words.

It reads fairly smoothly, but there may be several errors such as words I could not understand,

grammatical/spelling errors, and attributing something to the wrong person.

Contents

Pre-Disciplinary Council 00:00-08:45..................................................................................................2

Outside the council: 00:00-02:30.........................................................................................................2

Interpreter clarification: 02:30-04:23....................................................................................................3

Pre-Disciplinary Court: 04:23-06:24 ....................................................................................................4

Introductions 06:25-08:45 .....................................................................................................................5

Disciplinary Council 08:45-44:09 .........................................................................................................7

Getting Started 08:45-10:44 .................................................................................................................7

President Ivin’s Evidence 10:44-19:08................................................................................................8

Jeremy Runnells’ Statement 19:09-44:09 ........................................................................................13

Note: “Ivins” is Stake President Ivins who conducted the disciplinary council.

Pre-Disciplinary Council 00:00-08:45

Outside the council: 00:00-02:30

Jeremy Runnells: Hey guys.

[Cheering]

?: Hey how you doing Jeremy?

?: Hey, good to see you.

?: Good

?: You don’t have time for a press right now, right?

Jeremy Runnells: Ah, no I gotta get in, its six o’clock.

?: Tarren is here.

Jeremy Runnells: Yeah?

?: Yes.

Jeremy Runnells: Cool. Alright, cool. Well I gotta get in!

?: How are ya man?

Jeremy Runnells: I really appreciate it.

?: So Tarren is the interpreter

?: Yeah, yeah yeah.

Jeremy Runnells: I’m gonna take a minute here just to see everybody.

Thank you all for coming tonight, I appreciate it. I’m gonna go in tonight with my head held

high, morally clean, and a clear conscience that I have done nothing wrong. So hopefully tonight

the church will answer the questions that they’ve been ignoring the last 3 years. So thank you

all. I’m gonna head in.

[Cheering, walking, trying to open door, rustling]

?: Is the door unlocked? No?

Jeremy Runnells: K, let’s go around.

Interpreter clarification: 02:30-04:23

Jeremy Runnells: This is my interpreter.

?: Ok.

[walking, Indiscernible talking]

Jeremy Runnells: President Ivins, how are you?

Ivins: Jeremy, how are you?

Jeremy Runnells: Good! This is my interpreter Aaron. He will be helping me tonight.

Ivins: He’s not going to come into council.

Jeremy Runnells: This is the document from the handbook that, specifically stating, that you

are to accommodate me for an interpreter.

Ivins: Mmkay, I told you in the letter that we are not going to accommodate you.

Jeremy Runnells: Where did you put this letter?

[indiscernible]

Jeremy Runnells: Yeah, why can I not have an interpreter to accommodate me?

Ivins: We have an interpreter for you…

Jeremy Runnells: Oh, you do?

Ivins: We got one from the church. That’s correct.

Jeremy Runnells: Why didn’t you tell me that before, because the impression I got was that no

interpreter at all.

Ivins: I’ve decided to provide an interpreter for you if you want one.

Jeremy Runnells: Ok, yeah that’d be great, it’s just that it went from no interpreter to

interpreter. Why? Why is that?

Ivins: Would you like the interpreter or not?

Jeremy Runnells: Would I…? What was he saying?

Aaron: He said, “Do you want the interpreter or not?”

Jeremy Runnells: I do, I’m just surprised at the sudden change is all.

Pre-Disciplinary Court: 04:23-06:24

Ivins: So I need to have you read this.

[indiscernible talking]

Jeremy Runnells: So are you kicking him out?

Ivins: He’s not invited to the council.

Jeremy Runnells: Mkay. Can I get a copy of this?

Ivins: No, everybody’s signatures are on it.

Jeremy Runnells: What are you saying?

Aaron: Everybody’s signed it.

Jeremy Runnells: I know, but I’m asking you. Do I get a copy of this?

Ivins: I can give you a copy of the information here but not the signatures.

Jeremy Runnells: So can you get me a copy?

Aaron: [indiscernible, but clarifying what was said]

Jeremy Runnells: K, can you give me a copy right now?

Ivins: I… I’d have to type it up and… I’ll… I’ll get it to ya, I’ll send ya the… a document.

Jeremy Runnells: When will you send me the document?

Ivins: By Wednesday this week (4/20/2016).

[Silence from 05:08-05:35]

[Jeremy Runnells signing document, knock at door, door opens]

?: Ok.

[door closes]

[Silence 05:40-05:55]

Jeremy Runnells: I appreciate you accommodating me with the interpreter. That’s a surprise

change of [indiscernible] respect.

Ivins: I’ll have you go back outside.

Jeremy Runnells: Ok, thank you.

[indiscernible 06:06-06:24]

Introductions 06:25-08:45

[High council and Jeremy Runnells introducing each other.]

Jeremy Runnels

1st or 2nd counselor?

?: I’m 1st counselor.

Jeremy Runnells: Cool, so where do I sit?

Several People: Right there.

Jeremy Runnells: I need to be a little bit closer to the Stake President, if I can.

?: Just slide forward.

Jeremy Runnells: Ok. I’ll just make this my desk for the evening.

?: Oh.

Jeremy Runnells: So... Cool.

[Rustling, indiscernible talking 07:18-07:31]

?: Is President Ivins bringing the interpreter?

?: Yeah.

?: Alright.

Jeremy Runnells: If I came here there was no interpreter, now there’s an interpreter. I brought

my interpreter, but he kicked him out.

[Silence 07:40-07:51]

?: K, I’m gonna slide your chair back.

Jeremy Runnells: I need to be able to hear him better.

?: You’ll have an interpreter right here.

Jeremy Runnells: I know, but I want to be able to hear as well. Thank you.

[Silence, rustling 07:59-08:23]

?: Should the interpreter be closer to your line of sight or…

Jeremy Runnells: It’s ok. I appreciate your concern.

Hey!

?: How are you?

Jeremy Runnells: Good! I remember you!

?: Yes!

Jeremy Runnells: How’s your family?

?: Good, and yours?

Jeremy Runnells: Great.

?: Good deal.

?: Ok, let’s have a seat, please.

?: Where would be a good place for me to sit? Is this good?

Jeremy Runnells: That’s perfect.

?: This work? K, good.

Disciplinary Council 08:45-44:09

Getting Started 08:45-10:44

?: Ok.

?: Brethren, this is Jeremy Runnells from the 30th Ward, and we’re here to hold a disciplinary

council in his behalf. I’ve asked ______ to give our opening prayer.

?: Our dear father in Heaven, we’re so grateful for the gospel of Jesus Christ, we’re grateful for

the opportunity to participate in these proceedings this day, and we ask that thy spirit might be

upon us. That we might know thy will concerning all things and that this might be pleasing unto

thee. We pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Many People: Amen.

Ivins: Ok. We’ve had an opening prayer. Jeremy, we have convened tonight in this formal

disciplinary council in your behalf, the result of which includes the possibility of no action,

formal probation, disfellowshipment, or excommunication.

The reason for this council is that you are reported to be in apostasy, in that you have

repeatedly acted in clear, open, and deliberate opposition to the church or its leaders. You have

among other things, published materials and participated in interviews which have attempted

to discredit the church, publicly expressed your view that the church’s scriptures are

fraudulent, and expressed opposition to church leaders including the prophet Joseph Smith.

The definition of apostasy, as defined in the handbook is: repeatedly act in clear, open, and

deliberate opposition to the church or its leaders.

Jeremy Runnells: Can you finish the rest of the apostasy definition?

Ivins: I’m gonna speak what I want to speak.

Jeremy Runnells: Ok, ok.

Ivins: Thank you. Jeremy, do you admit or deny your participation in this conduct.

Jeremy Runnells: I deny it.

Ivins: Ok.

Jeremy Runnells: I deny it in the context of how you’re framing it.

Ivins: Ok. I’ll take up to 15 minutes, as stated in the letter that I sent you, to present the

evidence which supports those things expressed previously. After my 15 minutes, you’ll be

given 45 minutes to make your statement. Do you understand that?

Jeremy Runnells: I do.

President Ivin’s Evidence 10:44-19:08

Ivins: As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we believe Jesus is the

Christ, the son of a living god, and he is the head of the church, restored through the Prophet

Joseph Smith, that he did see God, the father, and his son, Jesus Christ, that he brought forth

The Book of Mormon by the power of God, and has been lead by continuous prophets since

then with continuing revelation.

As part of your public, deliberate, open opposition to the church, you have published an 84

page document on a public internet site, expressing opposition to core church doctrine, which

you claim has been downloaded and shared over 100,000 times. This document is being

translated into multiple languages. You are soliciting donations for its ongoing distribution and

development. You have done multiple online recorded interviews; broadcasting your views in

opposition of church doctrine and its leaders.

There is indication from your public website and also in online public forums, that you are

openly and deliberately in public opposition to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You are doing this by deliberately and openly mocking and ridiculing God as a psychopathic …

uh…

?: Schizophrenic

Ivins: Schizophrenic, thank you.

Page 70 of your online document:

Sorry, these things are hard to read. You expressed ridicule and mocked the Latter-day

scriptures, their origin, and the prophet Joseph Smith, page 81 of your online document.

More specifically here are some of your quotes and teachings, page 69 of your online

document, you state your disbelief and opposition to the scriptures.

“To believe in the scriptures, I have to believe in a god who endorsed murder, genocide,

infanticide, rape, slavery, selling daughters into sex slavery, polygamy, child abuse,

stoning disobedient children, pillage, plunder, sexism, racism, human sacrifice, animal

sacrifice, killing people who work on the Sabbath, death penalty for those who mix

cotton with polyester, and so on.”

On page 70 of the same document:

“As a believing Mormon, I tried to rationalize some of the craziness by saying, ‘Oh, this is

in the crazy Old Testament when the Law of Moses was in force. Christ came and

fulfilled the Law of Moses.’

“The problem with this is that the crazy god of the Old Testament was Jehovah. Who’s

Jehovah? The premortal Jesus Christ. So, Christ is the crazy god of the Old Testament.

The Christ of the Old Testament and the Christ of the New Testament are light years

different. Again, I’m asked to believe in not only a part-time racist god and a part-time

polygamous god but a part-time psychopathic schizophrenic one as well.”

Page 82:

“There are just way too many problems. We’re not just talking about one issue here.

We’re talking about dozens of serious issues that undermine the very foundation of the

LDS Church and its truth claims.”

Page 39:

“I’m supposed to go to the drawing board now and believe in a god who is not only a

schizophrenic racist but who is inconsistent as well?

“Yesterday’s doctrine is today’s false doctrine. Yesterday’s 10 prophets are today’s

heretics.”

Page 42:

“Why would I want my kids”...

Am I going too fast or too slow?

?: You’re ok.

(to Jeremy) Are we going too fast? Are we ok?

Jeremy Runnells: I know what the document is… so…

Ivins: Ok.

On page 42:

“Why would I want my kids singing “Follow the Prophet” with such a ridiculous 183-year

track record? What credibility do the Brethren have? Why would I want them following

the prophet when a prophet is just a man of his time teaching his “theories” that will

likely be disavowed by future Prophets, Seers, and Revelators? If his moral blueprint is

not much better than their Sunday School teachers? If, historically speaking, the

doctrine he teaches today will likely be tomorrow’s false doctrine?”

Page 81-82:

“I’m sorry, but faith is believing and hoping when there is little evidence for or against

something. Delusion is believing when there is an abundance of evidence against

something. To me, it’s absolute insanity to bet my life, my precious time, my money, my

heart, and my mind into an organization that has so many serious problematic

challenges to its foundational truth claims.”

In an online video, on Mormon Stories, you stated on June 13, 2014, part 1, you state:

“To me The Book of Abraham has got some problems, I look at each individual issue and

then I take a step back and say “Look... I don’t just look at a tree here and there.” I look

at the trees individually and I take a step back and I look at the forest and I say, “Is this

really the forest? The one and only true forest on the face of the earth? It doesn’t look

like it’s God’s work. It looks like one clumsy hoax.”

Part 2, you state (Note: these may not be exact quotes of Jeremy’s, Ivins seems to be

paraphrasing):

“I no longer believe in the church.”

“I mean, I’m not a Christian.”

“I really don’t relate to the whole Christian stuff. What I did, I took their (meaning the

Tanners’) research and their insight and put it in a way that works best for me. That

explains my train of thought in terms of why I no longer believe in the church.”

(no source found for this quote)

“My obsession now is not to…not the same obsession it was a year, 2, or 3 ago. I don’t

care about the LDS church anymore. Its foundational truth claims are demonstrably

false. The church is doing a fantastic job in accelerating its eventual irrelevance and

demise.”

Jeremy Runnells: Where is this from by the way?

Ivins: Your CES Letter.

Jeremy Runnells: No, what you just read its from the CES Letter?

?: That was from the Mormon Stories…

Ivins: Oh, I’m sorry, that was from the Mormon… Part 1, part 2, and part 3 from the Mormon

Stories…

Jeremy Runnells: This is all from that interview?

Ivins: Uh-huh.

Jeremy Runnells: The 1st part? 2nd part? Which part is it? Is it the 1st part?

Ivins: Ok, the 1st section I read, if you want me to read it again I will…

Jeremy Runnells: It’s fine, just…

Ivins: Part 1, part 2, and part 3. K?

Jeremy Runnells: I get it.

Ivins: Well, we’re on part 3.

You state:

(no source for this quote)

“The church is fake and not real. No, it (the church) is not really good, it’s fake. It’s not

real.

You state also:

(Part 1, still largely paraphrased.)

“I’m an Atheist, or a Buddhist. So, in that sense I’m kind of an Atheist. I don’t believe in

any religion or gods I currently know of. If a gun was pointed to my head and I was

forced to join a religion, I would probably join Buddhism.”

Now this is not…this is my…my words here.

Jeremy offered…I have offered to have written…I offered to have written dialogue with you and

I outlined certain guidelines for you to respect during our discussions, including you to agree to

keep our discussions confidential for the time that we were communicating with each other.

You chose not to participate in these discussions.

You and any person are welcome to your own conclusions and views, but when you create your

own organization and begin to solicit others to point to your point of view, seeking to oppose

the foundation doctrines of the church, you cross a boundary wherein you support, participate,

in direct opposition to the church.

It is my opinion that you have repeatedly acted in clear and open deliberate public opposition

to the church and it’s leaders.

I want to share my testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I know the gospel of Jesus Christ is

true, that we’re lead by a modern-day prophet, that through direct revelation we’re guided and

directed in these latter-days, that families can be eternal, and we can find joy and happiness

living gospel principles that are taught to us by prophets, seers, and revelators, and I bear that

testimony in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Multiple people: Amen.

Ivins: Ok, you have now 45 minutes to make a statement.

Jeremy Runnells: Cool! Thank you very much.

Jeremy Runnells’ Statement 19:09-44:09

Jeremy Runnells: President Ivins, can you read the rest of the apostasy definition? Like, you

read the definition but there’s more to it.

Ivins: I’d like you to make a statement.

Jeremy Runnells: Ok. You’re not going to answer that question?

Ivins: I’m not.

Jeremy Runnells: My experience with President Ivins, unfortunately, the past year and a half, is

that he has never answered my questions. Not a single question.

I have asked you 3 questions over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over.

20 times. And the specific questions that I asked is

“What error or mistakes in the CES Letter, or on the website, is incorrect so I can

publicly correct it?”

The 2nd question I asked you is:

“If there are no errors or mistakes, why am I being punished for seeking and sharing the

truth?”

And the 3rd question I asked you is:

“What question am I being punished for?”

And you have not answered a single one of them. Can I ask you why you are not answering

them?

Ivins: You’re gonna make a statement.

Jeremy Runnells: So you’re not going to answer any questionsIvins: I’m not, noJeremy Runnells: this evening.

Ivins: I’ve stated my evidence, you make a statement.

Jeremy Runnells: Do I have your…would you agree that I-

Ivins: You make a statement Jeremy.

Jeremy Runnells: Why are you not answering any questions?

Ivins: This is not the time for that.

Jeremy Runnells: When is the time?

Ivins: We’re not going to get into a debate. You’re gonna make a statement. Period.

Jeremy Runnells: I’m just gonna make a statement. Why won’t you answer my questions? I

asked…I have 3 very reasonable questions that I’ve asked over and over. Like, I don’t know

what! If there are errors and mistakes, I want to correct them! I don’t understand why you are

spiritually executing me over something I don’t know what’s wrong.

I mean, you claimed that I’m in public…I’m in opposition to the church, The church’s essays are

in public opposition to the church.

Out of curiosity, by a show of hands, how many of you have read the church’s essays? Nobody

here? Ok. By a show of hands, how many of you have read the CES Letter? Nobody here tonight

has read the CES Letter? Wow… and by a show of hands, has President Ivins prepared you

tonight for this council by reading the CES Letter carefully?

Ivins: Jeremy, you are to make a statement.

Jeremy Runnells: Ok. No questions are going to be answered tonight. This is crazy. This is really

crazy.

I refuse your observation that I’m in opposition to the church. It is interesting that the claims

that he has made against me, there’s not one thing that you said, that is: it’s not true or I’m

claiming falsehood, you’re just saying I’m in opposition. The reality is, is that the church’s essays

are in opposition to the church. The Book of Abraham is in opposition to The Book of Abraham.

Joseph Smith, the Kirtland and Nauvoo polygamy essay, it discusses very disturbing information

about Joseph Smith: How he married 14 year old girls and other men’s wives.

There are serious problems with church history, and for those of you who are unfamiliar with

my background, I was approached by my grandfather’s friend who was a CES Director, and he

asked me to lay out my concerns and questions. And I laid out my concerns and questions. And

his response after reading it was that it was a very well written document, and that the

brethren are concerned about the issues that the church is facing now in the Information Age.

He said he would respond back to me. He never responded back to me. I have sought official

answers to church problems, and I’ve sought the answers for 3 years, and they never came.

I’ve sought answers from you, President Ivins. We’ve had 2 meetings. The first meeting was on

October 19th. We got to know each other, and you agreed to read the CES Letter, and you read

the CES Letter and I appreciated that. Then the next meeting we had was November 2nd. In

that meeting I asked you to correct me and show me where the errors in the CES Letter is so

that I can publicly correct it. In the beginning of the meeting you refused to do that. I kept

asking you to correct me where I was incorrect so that I can publicly correct it. I am only

interested in accurate information.

I asked you to define apostasy for me, and you quote off The Church Handbook of Instructions.

There’s a part in The Church Handbook of Instructions where it outlines the different

definitions. You’ve read one of the definitions, you read “repeatedly act in clear, open, and

deliberate opposition to the church or its leaders”, but you didn’t read the 2nd one. The second

one is “Persist in teaching as church doctrine information that is not church doctrine after they

have been corrected by their bishop or higher authority”, and when you read that last

sentence, your face and your demeanor shifted when you realized you have to correct me, that

we can’t go by your “dark feelings”.

So I asked you, “Correct me! Please correct me! Show me where the errors are!”, and you

agreed to show me. Not in that meeting, but you’d show me later where the errors and

mistakes are. So it went from the beginning of the meeting: “I’m not going to correct you in any

way, I’m not getting into that” to where after you read this definition, you said “ok, I will show

you the errors and mistakes”. Then you disappeared. I never heard back from you again until

this year (2016).

For a year I waited for your answers, and instead of answers you had the audacity to call me,

after you knew that I told your secretary that I had a family member in hospice. You still had the

audacity to call me and say “come in anyway”. I asked you what this meeting was in regards to,

hoping that maybe they would be answers that you told me you were going to get, and the

corrections and errors you were going to get me. Instead of doing that, I asked you what the

meeting was in regards to, you stated “this is in regards to your membership in the church”.

We never had a conversation between November 2nd when you agreed to help me and to give

me the errors and mistakes between that time, and I find that disturbing. We had an agreement

to meet on March 15th. I am extremely disturbed by how I was treated this year by you,

President, extremely disturbed. We had an agreement on March 15th to meet, and in February,

you came up to me and said “We’re going to hold a council on you on Valentine’s Day”. I said

“Wait a minute, I never changed the agreement. March 15th. Why are you changing it? It was

really weird, this real sense of urgency that you had all of a sudden. You disappear for a year,

then all of a sudden you have this sense of urgency on the phone call when I said “March 15th”,

you said “I can’t wait that long!” Is Salt Lake involved in this? K you’re not going to answer that?

So you tried to hold a Valentine’s Day disciplinary council on me, without talking to me, without

giving me any errors, no mistakes to correct. I just find that real disturbing.

I also have a problem with how you conducted it. You claimed that you had additional

information to warrant the disciplinary council on Valentine’s Day. That just made it urgent. The

letter that you sent a few days later said “conduct unbecoming a member”. So it appears that

you and the church were attempting a character assassination on me.

I had no idea what I was being to the court for. I didn’t know exact charges, no charges were

given to me! I was never called to repentance! No errors or mistakes were given to me! Not one

single question was answered! It’s wrong! It’s not right! It’s unChrist-like in every way!

So I had a press conference to discuss this unChrist-like behavior, and this injustice that was

being done against me. And lo and behold, the very next day, 5 o’clock in the morning, you

emailed me saying that the disciplinary council was canceled for Valentine’s Day. So you

scheduled it for March 20th, and our March 15th meeting was still on.

So February 28th you emailed me again, and you asked if I was still going to meet on March

15th. I said “Nothing’s changed, I’ll still meet with you. By the way, I’m going to bring my ASL

interpreter to ensure I understand the meeting”, and you had a problem with the interpreter,

you did not want an interpreter present. So you canceled the March 15th meeting, and you also

canceled the March 20th meeting, and you took our conversation into writing, and I was

grateful for that, so I wanted to start a conversation with you, but you placed restrictions on it.

For some reason you wanted to take it into the dark into non-transparency. On our November

2nd meeting when you offered to help me with answers, there were no conditions placed on it.

But all of a sudden there’s all these conditions, that we have to talk in the dark and all that. I

was trying to understand why you were placing these conditions. What was your reasoning for

it?

Because I believe in the Mormon Marketplace of Information. I believe that individuals,

investigators and members of the church, need all of the information on the table to make a

fully informed decision as to whether or not they want to commit their hearts, minds, lives, and

money to Mormonism. It’s important because if not all the information is on the table, if an

organization or an individual takes some information off the table, critical information, they are

literally obstructing their free agency of the member or investigator. By hiding and withholding

important information from members and investigators, you are literally obstructing the free

agency of members of the church, and I have a problem with that. I believe in the Mormon

Marketplace of Information.

The reality is that church history is actually messy, and it’s not pretty down there, and there’s

just problems. We’re in the reality of the Information Age. We’re in the “Church Essays” world.

I don’t understand what I’ve done wrong. All I’m doing is…I went through official channels to

seek answers to my doubts. This was a after a year of frustration with dealing with unofficial

Mormon apologists. FairMormon and all these guys who are no more legitimate or official than

the crazy high priest guy that everybody rolls their eyes to in Sunday school. I was tired of them.

I wanted official answers from the church, so I went through official channels to get them, the

CES Director. I went through you to get answers, and the only thing I get in return is threats of

excommunication. No answers. Not a single question answered the last 3 years.

[Rustling]

Let me look at my notes real quick.

[Rustling 31:45-32:00]

I was hoping for a dialogue tonight. I was hoping to be able to ask my questions and get

answers, but it’s obvious I’m not going to get anything tonight. That this is not a real trial, it’s

not a real…as far as I’m concerned this is a kangaroo court. As far as I’m concerned, I mean, you

guys are not interested in helping me.

[indiscernible]

How many minutes do I have left?

Multiple People: 30

Jeremy Runnells: 30 minutes?

I mean, brethren, I don’t know how to repent of the truth. I don’t know how to repent of

church essay verified facts. I mean, I don’t know how to repent of…I’ve asked you over and over

and over to tell me where I’m wrong.

The real problem here is not whether I’m writing falsehoods or lies, I’ve never been accused of

that, it’s that I’m public about this information. So the real problem here is that the church has

a problem with freedom of expression. The church claims to believe in free agency, but it

doesn’t. You can keep your thoughts in your head, but the minute that you exercise your

freedom of expression, you get thrown into a disciplinary council. So the church doesn’t believe

in free agency.

I want to read a couple quotes

“If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to

have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.” -George Albert Smith

“Truth hath no fear of the light.”

“If an individual or organization seeks to silence doubt or questioning, in the private

room or in the town square, it is filled with fear and it’s house is built on sand.”

“If we have the truth, no harm can come from investigation. If we have not the truth, it

ought to be harmed.” - President J. Reuben Clark

Hugh B. Brown: “Now I have mentioned freedom to express your thoughts, but I caution

you that your thoughts and expressions must meet competition in the market place of

thought, and in that competition truth will emerge triumphant. Only error needs to fear

freedom of expression”

[Rustling 34:44-34:56]

So I’m going to respond to a quick few accusations.

1: You published materials and participated in interviews which have attempted to discredit the

church.

I’m not discrediting the church, the church’s essay’s are discrediting the church. There’s an

essay called “Race and the Priesthood“ where the brethren who approved these essays.

“Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine

disfavor or curse”. So today’s prophets, seers, and revelators threw yesterday’s prophets, seers,

and revelators under the bus. We have a record of 130 years of prophets pointing to God for

the priesthood ban, and it was not just a priesthood ban. It was a temple/exaltation ban

because black individuals and families could not get endowed or sealed in the temple for 130

years, over what the church now calls a disavowed theory. A disavowed theory that began with

Brigham Young in 1852. It wasn’t because the blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence, it

wasn’t revelation, it was a disavowed theory.

The essay says we disavow that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, yet that

contradicts The Book of Mormon. In 2nd Nephi 5: 21:

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because

of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had

become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and

delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a

skin of blackness to come upon them.”

This is the church’s own essay, “Race and the Priesthood“. It’s discrediting the church. It’s

discrediting The Book of Mormon. It’s discrediting every prophet from Brigham Young, all the

way to Harold B. Lee. So it’s not me that’s discrediting the church, it’s the church’s own essays.

It’s all facts! Mormon history is discrediting the church!

Joseph Smith’s actions and conduct of marrying other men’s’ wives and 14 year old girls behind

Emma’s back is discrediting Joseph Smith. It’s not me who’s discrediting him, its facts! These

are not “Anti-Mormon Lies”! It’s amazing to me that what was yesterday’s “Anti-Mormon Lies”

are now today’s church essays!

What am I doing here, President?! What am I doing here?! What error or mistake have I made?

Please correct me!

Book of Mormon: What are 1769 King James Version errors doing in The Book of Mormon?

What are 1769 King James Version errors doing in The Book of Mormon?

Other scriptures that are fraudulent, The Book of Abraham: This is from The Book of Abraham

church essay: “Neither the rules nor the translations in the grammar book correspond to those

recognized by Egyptologists today. … Scholars have identified the papyrus fragments as parts of

standard funerary texts that were deposited with mummified bodies.” This is in the church’s

“Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham“ essay.

So the papyri that Joseph Smith “translated” from is a standard funerary document, and they

expand on it. What is a standard funerary document? “These fragments date to between the

third century B.C.E. and the first century C.E., long after Abraham lived.” 2,000 years after

Abraham lived. It is so bad that evidence is so damning that the church is trying to sell what is

called a catalyst theory. That Joseph Smith did not translate The Book of Abraham like we were

taught growing up and all the church’s institutions: CES, mutual, Sunday school, that he

translated it. It’s no longer that he translated it, he just maybe touched the papyrus and he got

a revelation that became The Book of Abraham. But that theory, which is bizarre and

contradictory to the evidence in the journals and claims of Joseph Smith, it doesn’t explain why

Joseph Smith’s translations of the facsimiles are wrong, that they’re incorrect. Both LDS and

non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the translations of the facsimiles are wrong. Joseph Smith got

them wrong. So it’s not me that’s discrediting The Church of Joseph Smith, it’s the church’s

essays, essay facts, and Joseph Smith that is discrediting the church!

3. Express opposition to church leaders including the prophet Joseph Smith.

Again, the church’s essays do that just fine. It creates a new narrative that discredits the story

that was really told, that discredits the claims of Joseph Smith, I just mentioned several of

them. The Book of Abraham, blacks and the priesthood, The First Vision Accounts essay. Joseph

Smith wrote several different essays (accounts) that contradict each other. They evolve. Its…

[sigh]

The Book of Mormon Translation: You were taught that Joseph Smith used Gold Plates to

translate The Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon that we have today, and the essay verifies

it, was not translated with Gold Plates. It was used with a rock in a hat. The same rock in a hat

that Joseph Smith used to do treasure hunting. Yet, we’re still displaying artwork with Joseph

Smith’s fingers over the Gold Plates. That’s not honest.

So, I was trying to resolve these doubts and concerns. I was seeing this information and I was

trying to resolve it by writing the letter to the CES director. It was not my intention to destroy

the church or to take people out of the church, it still is not my intention. If people are happy in

the church, awesome! Fantastic! My intention is to get the official answers I was promised by

the CES director 3 years ago, and I still haven’t received any.

[Rustling]

So again, it’s not me that’s discrediting or doing opposition against the church. It’s the church’s

own verified essay facts.

[Rustling]

I’ve done nothing wrong. I stand today with my head held high. I’m morally clean. I have a clear

conscience that I have done nothing wrong.

So, because you guys are not answering my questions, and you guys have not answered my

questions the last 3 years, it is very clear to me that the church does not have answers to its

truth crisis. The church does not like individuals asking questions about its truth claims.

So, this is a kangaroo court. I’m done with this court. President, I am excommunicating the LDS

church, I am excommunicating you, and I am excommunicating this kangaroo court from my

life. Here is my resignation letter.

Good bye.